50 Years of GI Resistance Featured Latest Podcast

Podcast: "I refuse to [used] against people who oppose"


Zels Johnson: I feel if you take into consideration that your country is ready to kill people for what isn’t actually a criminal offense, however what is mostly a protest, it is rather troublesome to catch up. So it felt like making an attempt to get the word out. I went to the news media, they didn't consider me. They thought I was loopy. I talked to the people on the left and different progressive people who do not consider this may happen. It is rather troublesome, and I feel it is up to today. Even what happened within the state of Kent. It is rather troublesome for people to consider that their country is making an attempt to kill them.

Robert Raymond: You’re listening to a podcast braveness to resist, and I'm Robert Raymond. This braveness to resist the podcast is produced in cooperation with the peacekeepers of Vietnamese veterans. On this part, we are according to Zels Johnson, who first began anti-war resistance in the late 1960s, when he refused to continue with the Nationwide Guard. Zels describes in his ebook, "Unsurprisingly", his experiences during this time, including a large part of his organizing work, and his time within the army jail system.

podcast at the moment Zels. I would like to start … You joined the National Guard in the late 1960s and your experience led you to a very anti-war arrangement and resistance to life. I’m wondering in case you can describe the way you first joined, and then perhaps what pressured you to go to AWOL first.

Zels Johnson: Nicely it's really easy. I labored at a tuxedo rental enterprise near the College of Washington, and my boss didn't need me to do it. He was then a neighbor of the Nationwide Guard Adjutant League, Howard McGee. In contrast to Dan Quail or George W. Busch, I did not be a part of a national guard for patriotic reasons. I obtained to the Nationwide Guard because they didn't want me to go to Vietnam.

Robert Raymond: And what sort of experiences have been you once you have been in the National Guard, who led you to really feel that you simply needed to depart, you had to converse against what was occurring? What kind of compulsion was it?

Zels Johnson: Every little thing was pretty much like the previous nationwide guard. A lot of the Nationwide Guard models have been artillery models until the Detroit Rebel in 1967 in Detroit. Additionally in Newark and other huge cities. And when the Kerner report got here out, it was ordered. After which on the similar time, Linden Johnson came out of the reorganization of the nation, just earlier than I consider within the Democratic Conference. So the models can be taken from artillery, which turned an infantry. And I was with the headquarters and headquarters of the 41st Infantry Division, which later turned the third battalion of the 161th Infantry. And we began coaching riot administration. And in riot training, as a result of I used to be with S3, an operational officer, we organized lots of these activities. Every part is creating a complicated army room that nearly sounds surreal.

But all this was accomplished, and within the meantime they might have national models that might be riots, and a few who can be nationwide guards. And they might do the workouts. They usually gave full control over the models that came to be rioters, to provide you with what they came up with, that what they thought can be the best way the rioters would work. And then the nationwide guard would respond to it, as you’ll be able to think about that many occasions you bought out of hand. And it culminated after the democratic national convention, which was changed so much. It culminated in the fact that we had a drill that passed off among the many command models. And these command models have been the beginning of what the Nationwide Guard, the police and different forces would use as one unified unit that was later used in many demonstrations.

And that was exactly when the sniper groups that have been created and educated for the National Guard and the Seattle Police Division have been truly. It was a 72-hour drill at 91, where the Nationwide Guard was at that time. And I left it an entire trauma, shock, I'm fairly positive that I had just been utterly inebriated and was simply really, actually, actually shocked, as a result of I had never come face to face with the fact that somebody in the USA would attempt to kill other people in the USA, if it turned vital. So it simply changed my life and I had recommendation with my mother and father, I went and talked to people in the anti-war motion and in several organizations. People had all types of things they stated I might do. They stated they might chain me to the church and protest that method. So I used to be simply prepared… I didn't know what to do.

So I just began going to the Nationwide Guard meetings. A few month after I didn't do it, I went to the Nationwide Administration, I was AWOL and I was going to be punished, and once I drove within the morning, I stepped forward and stated, "I refuse to be part of a political police pressure used to oppose people who disagree. “And I left. And that was the beginning of what a few years can be preventing.

Robert Raymond: And what yr was it?

Zels Johnson: In all probability Early ”69.

Robert Raymond: Gotcha. Earlier69, simply earlier than the Kent State shootings occurred in 1970, when Ohio Nationwide Guard killed 4 college students who have been on campus protest. It was in 1970.

Zels Johnson: Might 4. Might 4, 1970. Coming to his 49th anniversary

Robert Raymond: Right. Right, so it was around 1969 whenever you left the National Guard. I’m wondering when you might inform me just a little about what was happening? The method of leaving the National Guard after which what sort of organizations and warfare have you ever participated in afterwards?

Zels Johnson: Nicely, I lived with my wife at the moment and daughter. I used to be AWOL and I couldn't work. I had been working for a while till they asked for my social security number and then give up. And there was an occasion once I lived there. I had taken care of my daughter and all of a sudden, I spoke very nicely with some neighbors, and one of many neighbors stated: "There are many people in the car park and there is plenty of activity." referred to as the police. The Seattle police came with sirens and then the people who have been in all probability CID took the lifeless run and the police took them. And I'm positive they have been fairly indignant about all the things. And at that time it turned clear that I had to share. So many people permit me to keep at residence for a day or two at a time as a part of the peace movement.

Then we went to a house with a number of other people and we took part in what was referred to as Seattle Liberation Front, or me. And it might have been 1970, so all this had been happening for a yr, but the different things that have been happening and I used to be lively with issues that have been anti-war and who have been nonetheless making an attempt to be arrested. And we have been becoming a member of Seattle's Liberation Entrance and it was January 1970. And Jerry Reuben had been speaking at the University of Washington, and then the opening in our staff, referred to as Long Time Coming, was being organized by Fort Lewis and halfway by means of Shelter Half, disturbing selective service centers, interfering with selective service centers, interfering with high school faculties, Usually, pensioners had to sign their 18th anniversary for selective service.

Robert Raymond: And just to clarify the half-soldiers you talked about, who was the GI cafe channel?

Zels Johnson: Sure, it was on the leeward aspect, the ESU, they usually had a newspaper referred to as Fed Up, so we went outdoors, we went Tacoma, we go to places, and I'm AWOL all the time. As this all started to turn out to be more lively, the FBI visited. I came to the house, however people noticed that they crawled outdoors the home, so I went to the basement and hid, they usually turned away. And then another time, they pressured the automotive out of the best way that they thought I was in that automotive. They usually considered another individual who additionally went via this with me in the military reserve. They usually pressured the automotive out of the best way.

And another occasion through which they broke into the house tried to see if any of us had been there. It was just about what occurred. Within the meantime, nevertheless, we had blocked ourselves into the 6 selective service workplaces of the local authorities in Seattle's central authorities and transferred it to the office. And we obtained out. We never received caught. Until, nevertheless it was recognized the subsequent day, February 17, 1970, and it was the day… As a result of the whole objective of the Seattle Liberation Front was to protest seven people who have been tried to conspire with the Democratic Nationwide Convention in 1968. They usually have been in courtroom in Chicago with Decide Julius Hoffman. And Bobby Seal was also eighth, however he was displaced once they tied him and coated him.

So when the verdict was coming down they usually had chosen on February 17th, there were hundreds who came to the US Courthouse and protested. And our collective, long-term collective, our objective was that the police tried to arrest the protester at any time, we obtained up with the police and made noise, and they might chase us and launch different people. Earlier than I do not know, perhaps 15 or 20 minutes, it seemed no additional, but I'm positive it was not. About seven or eight cops brought me to considered one of his breasts. And the newspaper referred to as The Helix was a picture that exhibits me a number of police round me on the sector.

And then, according to the US Commissioner and the US Commissioner, he knew my case and was whether they had been properly activated after AWOL and whether or not they had followed the procedure. So there was a lawsuit, and this Walter Reeseburg stated: “I find out about this case. Wash my hand on the matter. “And I walked away. It's like a Poncen pilot. When he did this, the army police came and grabbed me and medicines me, put me within the automotive and the police machine in the Fort Lewis warehouse above the helicopter, and once I was put into Ft. Lewis.

Robert Raymond: Okay, so you spent a while at Fort Lewis' Washington Warehouses or a army prison. However you have been nonetheless very lively in organizing, and you have been nonetheless fairly lively about anti-war resistance throughout this time, right?

Zels Johnson: Right. We Participated… The thing that has happened today is that people collect collectively organizations and requirements. And one of many demands that was referred to as was the popular advantage of the liberation of Lewis Stockade. And one of the people was at Kaplan's office, and he was in a position to mimic these, so we had copies and gave them away. Thus, the requirements weren’t as essential as the truth that the people who held these papers have been jeopardized that they have been taken and segregated, and maybe even misplaced all the great occasions that they had achieved. Thus, retaining the requirements turned rather more radical than even creating requirements.

And it happened. That they had people who had tried to find all these requirements and get all of the papers they usually had gown up and I don't assume they obtained lots. However they may definitely be sure that this didn’t occur again. And there were a number of people, particularly one individual was very concerned, and his identify was Willy Williams. Willy had simply served a tour that I consider in Vietnam, returning to Seattle. His family lived there. And he, his board of administrators, put a picture of his army id card on and underneath the poster card, it stated to Nixon of freedom or demise. So he was put in storage. So Willy was there, Wade Carson was there who was placed within the warehouse for sale at Fed Up newspapers and a number of other different people who have been also there.

Meanwhile, my case had gone to the purpose the place they have been going, one with the courtroom, and the decide continued. And the method with my JAG lawyer, the Decide Advocate, who works with the lawyer, made me release until the results of the trial came. They usually obtained me released at a reception station where I labored for a clerk-typist with MOS seven. The one Bravo twenty.

Robert Raymond: And then sooner or later you determined

Zels Johnson: Nicely, even at the beginning happened, my entire thing was that I was working with Shelter Half and I didn't have to depart the publish or depart the world, however I did that. After which the phrase returned to me that they have been going to put me again within the stockad as a result of they have been going to ship me, I consider ASU was going to ship me to one of many people in San Diego where they have been going to change from ASU, they got here into the democratic army motion or speaking . When the phrase came out, people came and took me out of the automotive fleet and introduced me to a gaggle of houses in Seattle, referred to as the Safeway homes, because these houses have been convicted and destroyed by a brand new Safeway store, so Safeway had virtually nothing to lease and people took it they take over by hoping that they won’t care for them and then in the neighborhood it will be a pleasure to see it gone. And I lived within the attic of one among these houses and at night time we went out and sprayed paint around Willy.

Robert Raymond: Proper. You write one night time if you and your mates have been there spraying Free Willy campus, and also you truly have been driving like a reasonably close name with the authorities. You barely received out of it, but this expertise ended up forcing you to depart the US to Canada, right?

Zels Johnson: Nicely, what later turned a superb pal and now a world-renowned poet, David Morgan. He went to the University of Seattle and had the entire thing within the chilly, and he stated, "Let's just take over." As a result of we had been spray painting Free Willy all through the College of Seattle campus. And he advised the police, he says, "We just came out of study," and we went again and the police took it and purchased it and stated, "You can be careful because there are people around the campus and they could be dangerous, of course." in fact we weren't, and he stated, "I'll send the radio forward to get out of the campus." they stated, "Well, we have to get you out of here." And once more they took me to Canada, and I went via the automotive again and made it to Canada and received in with someone who was in the news on the time, Bruce McClain.

She was Fort Lewis and he was kidnapped and despatched to Vietnam, and in Hawaii he obtained out and was in a position to divide and end up in Canada, and he and his spouse lived there and met them and stayed.

Robert Raymond: Including some organizations just like the Vancouver Liberation Entrance and…

Zels Johnson: Right, it was the Vancouver Liberation Motion. Every little thing was a launch head. We just organized or had loads of opponents, there was a number of AWOL. And lots of of them had no place to stay, and lots of of them stayed in hostels that the town provided. The mayor then closed the hostels after which went to the seashore. They usually had an enormous riot, went straight to battle within the Gulf of England. So there have been a number of people who have been opponents who have been lively and did a number of good issues. And grabbed the FBI's eye again. A enjoyable story, we lived in the home and had phones, but we didn't have a phone service, and in the future the telephone began calling. And we had a direct telephone. So we realized it had to be a FBI who had fastened our telephone to see we have been silly enough to design the telephone. So we simply name it everywhere in the world.

Robert Raymond: Okay, so you ended up in Fort Lewis warehouses, and eventually you ended up in Leavenworth, a jail situated just outdoors Kansas Metropolis.

Zels Johnson: That's proper.

Robert Raymond: Are you able to describe this process? In your e-book, there are some pretty deep factors on this level where you speak concerning the feeling of worry, but in addition the inspiration you experienced in prison. Can you speak about it a bit of?

Zels Johnson: Okay, leading to the US Military being sensible. Each message has stocks. And at that time, each submit had activists making an attempt to do one thing in a nicely organized or maybe even organized method. So all these mixers are sent to this one place, referred to as the US Discipline Barracks in Fort Leavenworth or Military Prison. So we have now at the least fifty people on this jail and who have been working elsewhere like Leong Pin in Vietnam, together with Manheim in Germany. And wherever there’s a message on the planet, there’s stockade. And all these activists are all collectively and we’re all collectively in this place. In fact, the entire concept was to get together and we did. And in the meanwhile, Fort Lewis, now three, Carl Dicks, Paul Forest and Jim Allen, came from Fort Lewis and have been in jail. And Willy Williams was there. And Wade Carson was there. And all these different people have been in jail.

So we began to collect within the library to plan and see what have been some issues to do. And we started it within the library as a result of there was no control within the library. That they had no cameras in the library. It was just free. So we might go there and work with it. And a number of other issues happened. One was that we needed to be… Carl Dicks had quite a bit, a couple of others who needed to promote black tradition. Black history. Others stated that this was the time Angela Davis went to courtroom and the mixture of those two things has led to action, as they call the people going via the Chow line and never having a starvation strike, but simply going by means of the Chow line by customized, decide up their trays, decide up all the tools, walk by means of the Chow line and drop their trays off after which stroll to the table and wait till they arrive

happened with us, we have been all in different courses, and it was just a matter of time. After which they closed the prison, they rounded at the least 13 people, together with Carl and I, and Paul and Jim, they rounded us up and put us in disciplinary separation, the place that they had Carlin's ten or twelve steps program. Menengar, the place they took the whole lot away, including your garments and all the bedding, and you’d be what can be referred to as rabbit portions. And you then work back until you attain another level. But nobody rolled out, in order that they gave up, they usually ended up with three of us, they usually charged us with a conspiracy to defeat the jail. They went to courtroom, and three of us have been put to dying at the moment, nevertheless it was not used since 1961. In order that they opened it after which we have been put there. 19659003] Robert Raymond: And could you speak a bit about what it was, I assume it will occur to you psychologically during this time? As a result of it sounds pretty robust, like a reasonably robust response to a relatively minor act. And you didn't all do something crazy. How did this feel that heavy hand response? Have you ever ever regretted or have been you positive you have been on the opposite aspect?

Zels Johnson: Nicely, I feel what happened once we have been in what was referred to as dying was fairly intense. However I feel all of us felt we did what we would have liked to do and what we had to do, and we're going to continue it. And worry was all the time. But on the similar time it was the power I never knew. And it was simply, it's arduous to describe. But every time you do one thing and the army react, you are feeling like you would do one thing right. They usually have been confused about what occurred. Within the dying row space, I do know I had a army inquiry that got here to query me. And I know that what was really thrilling is when and the chains which are within the chains, handcuffs and legs, walked in the yard, it was fairly inspiring. People gave me energy salute once I'm walking alongside, and it is black, white, all over the place. Because it is likely one of the things we had been doing there. We tried to break down the obstacles that had been created, not by way of the jail, however by way of the prisoners themselves.

And you then had the wing of the black prison, you had a wing of the prison, which was white and the opposite wing I assumed was the remaining. And typically they have been somewhat confused. So it was very powerful, nevertheless it was really scary how much info the army intelligence had in my life, returning to the classroom, consider it or not. So it was fairly scary in itself, however it was also quite powerful if you really feel you have got brought about this great response, ie they’re afraid. They are frightened that you simply may need energy.

I do know at the similar time, the Catholic priest gave me the selection, he stated, “You either inform what you stated, or we might send you criminally mad to Springfield, Missouri, frontal lobotomy. “They usually have been his actual phrases. I don't assume it ever happened, however still, you recognize, it's scary.

Robert Raymond: Yeah, I mean, it feels like they're actually making an attempt to get your pores and skin down and simply break you down. I think that you simply, simply I’m wondering, describe in you many fascinating characters you met in prison. Are you able to describe a few of the tales of another residents who have been there with you?

Zels Johnson: One individual who was probably the most fascinating, and I met him once I was still within the public, and I never knew that it was happening, but he was in the desert in Vietnam. And he had ended up within the village, and there were nationwide liberation fighters in the village who protected this village, which had Vietnamese and deserters. They usually had a unit, and I’ve by no means absolutely followed whether this is all true, but many say there was an identical unit that was a cranium and a junction that was there to hunt and not catch and catch, but kill. Particularly among the many Vietnamese, there are deserts that have been protected by the Nationwide Park. And it was unimaginable.

And he ended up being abducted, and there was a fireplace, and he was imprisoned and put in jail and I assumed he had a lifetime. And the lifespan was both a homicide or attempted murder of the ARVIN of the Vietnamese Army with the US Army, and it could possibly be that unit. Now, different people, of whom I’ve spoken who are veterans, appear to keep in mind stories about it, however you understand how they are. But at the least that is his story.

Robert Raymond: Wow. Okay, and then you definitely instantly release it as it’s, I feel a bit of mysterious. Simply instantly, you’re free to go.

Zels Johnson: Properly Carl had contacted Congressman Dell Dell, Faith, California. And different US senators had been contacted because there have been people, families, and different people in motion who tried to draw consideration to what would happen to us as a result of it was never clear whether we have been going to face extra time or going to go to us. So we actually didn't know. So Ron Dellums had come to jail. And in my case, my mother had been in touch with several so-called. Progressive Senators akin to Warren Magnusun and Kennedy. However Musty was in the matter and demanded analysis, and even the Purple Cross couldn’t come right here. And Carl had been in touch with the Black Panther, I feel in Kansas City, so there was some exercise happening and it was more durable and more durable to hold all the duvet in jail. After which they only determined that this won’t be value it.

And I do know I was referred to as in. I had no concept I used to be launched. My imprisonment was lower than Carl's, it was two years. They usually simply got here and obtained me within the morning and stated, "You are here." And he introduced me to comadin, I feel his identify was Francis Payne, and he stated, "I will not give you a mess in my prison anymore. , they know what time you are going to arrive. ”My parents had to come up with money to fly away and they took me to the airport, here again, an oversized way with an armed escort who took me to the plane and, according to the armed escort, marched to a plane that was regular commercial flight from Kansas City, and that was it, and when I came and I was home, and I know that the first thing I did was to meet some people in the university district, and we drink wine spo-Dee-d-Dee in the US Post Office, and Believe it or not, the police came up and they came to me, and they said, "You might have been arrested for desertion." And I used to be just in jail.

Robert Raymond: Wow.

Zels Johnson: And so they took me to the army police unit. I informed you to call Fort Leavenworth better, as a result of I’m launched. They usually did, they usually stated, "Take a breath, know, get out of here." And that was it. And then I was extra lively in other issues that have been happening. Presently, Randy was very lively. Randy Roland, people need to know who was part of Presidio Mutinya, and he was lively in Fort Lewis, and other people who have been lively in Fort Lewis. And then there was something referred to as The Inside Out, which was a gaggle of prisoners because I contacted the prison. After which I turned very lively after that.

Robert Raymond: So the title of your ebook is, failed. I’m wondering when you might clarify the title and perhaps give us an concept, you recognize, you at the moment are taking a look at how you are feeling about every little thing and the period we've often talked about. How is it related to me, where are we now?

Zels Johnson: I feel the most important thing for me was to undergo the drill and see that they really kill the leaders of the anti-war motion. But the leaders they have been most apprehensive about have been leaders, in the midst of something that was operating, riot, demonstration, riot, what you’re. The leaders they have been fearful about have been people who divorced to take duty for those who needed, and people then fell with them. They’re the people they needed to take when wanted. And I feel whenever you consider that your country is ready to kill people, as a result of what is admittedly not a criminal offense, however what is mostly a protest could be very troublesome to grasp. Now coloured people can seize it as a result of they face their entire life, where their lives are extra threatened than a young white boy, if you would like.

So it feels. I tried to get the word out. I went to the news media. They didn't consider me, they thought I was loopy. I talked to the people on the left and different progressive people who don’t consider this is able to occur. It is rather troublesome, and I feel it’s up to this present day. Even what happened in the state of Kent. It is extremely troublesome for people to consider that their nation is making an attempt to kill them. They will arrest them, however they don't attempt to kill them. And it has modified quite a bit. And Kent State had not occurred, the Detroit Revolt had occurred in 67, what happened in Chicago. However I needed to attempt to ensure that people knew this is able to occur and that it wouldn't occur. And I couldn't think of a greater title for what I had written as Failing Spectacularly.

As a result of I attempted to forestall what would later be Kent's state, and failed impressively. As a result of Kent State happened. Jackson State occurred. What happened within the warfare was more aggressive since then. And it was a mixture of what occurred in the state of Kent, a mixture of police and soldiers and all these other forces all concerned in making an attempt to stop the anti-war movement. Kent State is among the most fascinating campuses within the US in the sense that it is so much within the blue collar industrial area, and so many students at that time have been its little kids. So every year there is a fixed wrestle for why nationwide authorities did what they did? And what we educated to do was exactly what the Nationwide Guard did. So that was why it was actually necessary for me to attempt to get that out. And it nonetheless is essential. I feel people are still questioning whether what occurred at Kent State might’ve truly been something that was deliberate.

Robert Raymond: Right. And in order we wrap up, I’m wondering if there’s anything that you simply’d want to conclude on, perhaps with regard to your current work or organizations right now that you simply’d like to discuss?

Zels Johnson: Nicely to begin with, Veterans For Peace is doing unimaginable, excellent work. And it’s choosing up where Vietnam Veterans Against The Conflict left off and we have now a very robust position to play. And not turning into archaic relics of the previous, but continuing to be necessary to the present and to the longer term. And what it’s, is simply to continuously hold doing as a lot as we will.

Robert Raymond: Nicely thank you so much for sharing your story with us as we speak, Zels. It was actually a pleasure talking with you.

Zels Johnson: Proper again at you, Robert. Thank you.

Robert Raymond: That was Zels Johnson. You’re listening to The Courage to Resist podcast, and I’m Robert Raymond. This Courage to Resist podcast is produced in collaboration with the Vietnam full disclosure effort of Veterans For Peace. This yr marks fifty years of GI resistance in and out of uniform, for a lot of concerned with this campaign, to converse fact to power and maintain alive the anti-war perspective on the U.S. warfare in Vietnam. Visit vietnamfulldisclosure.org and couragetoresist.org for more info and to supply your help. Thanks to Jeff Patterson, our Government Producer.

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